• RE: the nothing to hide a

    From TheMemeWarrior@VERT/TMBBS to ARELOR on Monday, January 31, 2022 16:22:00
    And then all the pro-privacy arguments were done on Youtube, owned by one of the most privacy unfriendly corporations on Earth.

    Thats an understatement. I forget where exactly but I saw a video presentation by
    someone at google about the lengths they will go to track you even in a private browser
    session.

    ---
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to TheMemeWarrior on Saturday, February 05, 2022 01:55:00
    Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
    By: TheMemeWarrior to ARELOR on Mon Jan 31 2022 04:22 pm

    And then all the pro-privacy arguments were done on Youtube, owned by one of the most privacy unfriendly corporations on Earth.

    Thats an understatement. I forget where exactly but I saw a video presentation by
    someone at google about the lengths they will go to track you even in a private browser
    session.


    yeah what happened to do no evil
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Andeddu@VERT/AMSTRAD to MRO on Thursday, February 10, 2022 19:06:00
    Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to TheMemeWarrior on Sat Feb 05 2022 01:55 am

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

    ---
    Synchronet BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Andeddu on Friday, February 11, 2022 18:25:00
    Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
    By: Andeddu to MRO on Thu Feb 10 2022 07:06 pm

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.
    Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Otto Reverse@VERT/BEERS20 to Boraxman on Friday, February 11, 2022 12:35:00
    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.
    Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if
    it is convienient for them.

    So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Otto Reverse on Friday, February 11, 2022 16:56:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.
    Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

    So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

    our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly spying the fuck out of us.
    several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

    it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Otto Reverse on Saturday, February 12, 2022 10:50:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.
    Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

    So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) tha Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

    What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), who share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google responds!

    I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to suit the situation pushed upon then.

    People only really started using this "privacy doesn't matter" argument once

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to MRO on Saturday, February 12, 2022 22:36:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Otto Reverse on Fri Feb 11 2022 04:56 pm

    our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly spying the fuck out of us.
    several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

    it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

    That is incredibly unethical, and these companies have the gall to crow about their values and their goodness and how they are socially responsible.

    Silicon Valley truly is satans arsehole of the world, where awefulness emerges to stain the world.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to MRO on Saturday, February 12, 2022 09:12:00
    Hello MRO!

    ** On Friday 11.02.22 - 16:56, MRO wrote to Otto Reverse:

    it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.


    A lament on privacy from 1972..

    https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4


    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Ogg on Sunday, February 13, 2022 11:01:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Ogg to MRO on Sat Feb 12 2022 09:12 am

    Hello MRO!

    ** On Friday 11.02.22 - 16:56, MRO wrote to Otto Reverse:

    it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.


    A lament on privacy from 1972..

    https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

    Time to start pushing back, through example.

    There is one rule that I think everyone should adopt. Electronic communication should not be broadcast further than the intended audience.

    The mistake was the "open internet", where everything that people did was automatically public. We got to thinking that when we use the "Internet", it must be public. The Internet is really just a means of conveying data packets from one machine to another, and there is nothing which says this should be visible to all.

    We've made ourselves not expect privacy, and therefore don't really deserve it.
    Back in the 90's, when you messaged on a BBS, is stayed there. Now when you do, it gets broadcast everywhere. This message will be public, even though you have to get an account to post it, and the server (BBS) has to sign up to spread it.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to MRO on Sunday, February 13, 2022 11:31:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Otto Reverse on Fri Feb 11 2022 04:56 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.
    Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil it is convienient for them.

    So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

    our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly s several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

    it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps
    and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The
    Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically sh ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Ogg@VERT/CAPCITY2 to Boraxman on Sunday, February 13, 2022 12:13:00
    Hello Boraxman!

    ** On Sunday 13.02.22 - 11:01, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:

    A lament on privacy from 1972..

    https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

    Time to start pushing back, through example.

    [...]

    The mistake was the "open internet", where everything that
    people did was automatically public. We got to thinking
    that when we use the "Internet", it must be public. The
    Internet is really just a means of conveying data packets
    from one machine to another, and there is nothing which
    says this should be visible to all.

    when I first participated in email, I was amused that it was so
    easy to route one's email through any particular server that
    would allow it. I believe the technique was using the ! symbol
    (bang path notation). The "net" seemed to be open to the finger
    command too.

    We've made ourselves not expect privacy, and therefore
    don't really deserve it. Back in the 90's, when you
    messaged on a BBS, is stayed there. Now when you do, it
    gets broadcast everywhere. This message will be public,
    even though you have to get an account to post it, and the
    server (BBS) has to sign up to spread it.

    The "narrative" from higher-up was not to expect privacy, but
    before then, I don't think most people expected to have the
    content of their email and activities on the internet
    monitored.

    Convenience does seem to trump privacy though. :(

    Check out my post here a few months ago:

    MID: 723:320/1.9@dovenet f4270dd1

    Subject: Privacy is Power: take back your control
    Date: Su 05.09.21, 23:46

    The book outlines very practical steps that people can adopt.


    --

    --- OpenXP 5.0.51
    * Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
    Synchronet CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP
  • From MATTHEW MUNSON@VERT/IUTOPIA to ANDEDDU on Sunday, February 13, 2022 20:38:00
    ANDEDDU wrote to <=-

    yeah what happened to do no evil

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

    Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

    ... An armed populace is the greatest insurance against tyrany.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    wcQWK 8.0 Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Moondog on Monday, February 14, 2022 02:22:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am


    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically sh ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    i might try one out, but i just bought a phone a few months ago because i broke my camera lense when having it in my back pocket. i was rolling around on the ground changing a tire. THAT phone wasnt even old
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Moondog on Monday, February 14, 2022 20:18:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionality. My current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't need much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do my fine. Play some music and I'm set.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Ogg on Monday, February 14, 2022 20:30:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Ogg to Boraxman on Sun Feb 13 2022 12:13 pm

    when I first participated in email, I was amused that it was so
    easy to route one's email through any particular server that
    would allow it. I believe the technique was using the ! symbol
    (bang path notation). The "net" seemed to be open to the finger
    command too.

    The "narrative" from higher-up was not to expect privacy
    before then, I don't think most people expected to have the
    content of their email and activities on the internet
    monitored.

    Convenience does seem to trump privacy though. :(

    Check out my post here a few months ago:

    MID: 723:320/1.9@dovenet f4270dd1

    Subject: Privacy is Power: take back your control
    Date: Su 05.09.21, 23:46

    The book outlines very practical steps that people can adopt.

    They didn't expect it, and when people found out they shrugged their shoulders, because, well, what can you do? I think we need to change culturally, go back to valuing discretion. People don't really understand what they are doing online, and don't consider it an analogue of what happens in your private life.

    Take for example meeting people in a pub, you have a conversation. You would NOT expect the entire world to be able to view that conversation. Maybe others in the pub will overhear, but it's not searchable. Or you join a Linux Users Group and you discuss having a BBQ with others at a meeting, again, that would be just for those in the group, not something that people in Russia or around your city would find out about. People wouldn't be able to know who went where and when.

    But when it comes to the "internet", we kind of don't apply those standards. A group is public. Take fsxNet, we were discussing a meet up in Melbourne. This should be considered something only relevant to those in fsxNet, but you would (when we plan to), be able to Google search the event, and anyone in the world would know who went where and when. This doesn't sit right with me, it is very weird, but we still haven't gotten used to that.

    In a way,, I'm advocating a more closed Internet. Web pages, public forums should remain public, but communication should be, by default, by convention and politeness, be only for the audience participating.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to MATTHEW MUNSON on Monday, February 14, 2022 10:21:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

    Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

    What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results as Google?

    I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Monday, February 14, 2022 13:45:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

    What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality results as Google?

    I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

    Nightfox


    You could use Startpage, which is a proxy/frontend to google.

    Duckduckgo is also popular. It is a proxy/frontend for Bing.

    Then there are tonnes of Metasearchers, such as a lot of freely available
    Searx instances., or Xaarky.

    Those generate quality results for searches. Beyond that, it is uncharted territory. Gigablast is worthy of mention because it is both a FOSS search engine you can install and deploy (it takes a lot of resources) and a website you can use for your searches (gigablast.com). Results are not that good, though.

    BUt the best search engine is Veronica 2 for gopherspace. \o/

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Monday, February 14, 2022 12:36:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Feb 14 2022 01:45 pm

    You could use Startpage, which is a proxy/frontend to google.

    That's interesting, I hadn't heard about that. I'll have to check it out.

    Duckduckgo is also popular. It is a proxy/frontend for Bing.

    I thought DuckDuckGo was its own search engine.. Didn't know it was a frontend for Bing.

    Then there are tonnes of Metasearchers, such as a lot of freely available Searx instances., or Xaarky.

    I remember using one years ago called SavvySearch. I thought they had disappeared, but it looks like they still exist (maybe they went away for a while and came back?) It looks like they're owned by CBS now.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From SYS64738@VERT/DIBZ to Boraxman on Monday, February 14, 2022 09:18:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Ogg on Mon Feb 14 2022 20:30:20

    Take for example meeting people in a pub, you have a conversation. You would NOT expect the entire world to be able to view that conversation. Maybe others in the pub will overhear, but it's not searchable. Or you join a Linux Users Group and you discuss having a BBQ with others at a meeting, again, that would be just for those in the group, not something that people in Russia or around your city would find out about. People wouldn't be able to know who went where and when.

    But when it comes to the "internet", we kind of don't apply those standards. A group is public. Take fsxNet, we were discussing a meet up in Melbourne. This should be considered something only relevant to those in fsxNet, but you would (when we plan to), be able to Google search the event, and anyone in the world would know who went where and when. This doesn't sit right with me, it is very weird, but we still haven't gotten used to that.

    In a way,, I'm advocating a more closed Internet. Web pages, public forums should remain public, but communication should be, by default, by convention and politeness, be only for the audience participating.

    I can certainly see your point. It's sort of like when my aunt (who is not very tech savvy) thinks she is sending a private message to me in Facebook, but she actually posts that message on her wall for everyone to see. She intended for it to be a private conversation, but now everyone on her friend's list can see it. Also, if her setting on FB are set a certain way, the entire planet can see it just through a simple Google search. If it were a personal matter, then it only gets worse from there.

    ---
    Synchronet I got DIBZ on it! (dibz.synchro.net)
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Monday, February 14, 2022 11:39:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app stor collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source app and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physical ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionality. current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't need much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do my fine. Play some music and I'm set.

    Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone with
    a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps on it.

    Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all around my area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I got a Samsung A11 for free after the discount.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Monday, February 14, 2022 17:55:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

    Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

    What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results as Google?


    bing is actually damn good. it's just that i use google by habit.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MATTHEW MUNSON@VERT/IUTOPIA to NIGHTFOX on Monday, February 14, 2022 20:55:00
    On 2/14/2022 10:21 AM, NIGHTFOX wrote to MATTHEW MUNSON:



    Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

    What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results
    as Google?
    Bing at home and Duck Duck Go for work browsing.

    ---
    wcQWK 8.0 Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Nightfox on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 20:06:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

    They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

    Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

    What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality results as Google?

    I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

    Nightfox


    Duck Duck Go is better in some instances, particularly if you are searching something where there might be an incentive to skew the results. Searching for any topic where there might be non-narrative views will yield a wider variety of hits on Duck Duck Go than Google. Sometimes, the difference is stark. There is a very obvious bias to Google now.

    Google is still better in some specific situations, when searching something technical with very specific search terms, but Duck Duck Go is good enough to be my default. Google as a backup.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to SYS64738 on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 20:12:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: SYS64738 to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 09:18 am

    I can certainly see your point. It's sort of like when my aunt (who is not very tech savvy) thinks she is sending a private message to me in Facebook, she actually posts that message on her wall for everyone to see. She intende for it to be a private conversation, but now everyone on her friend's list c see it. Also, if her setting on FB are set a certain way, the entire planet see it just through a simple Google search. If it were a personal matter, t it only gets worse from there.

    Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

    Defaults matter a lot in any software or service design, and I think good design is to default to a limited audience, and to be upfront and clear what th e scope of communication is.

    Sometimes, like a forum where you can read everything from the start page, it is obvious, but in other areas, it is not. If you have to sign up, log in to access, then it is implied that access is for those signed up.

    In the early days, the WWW was a public place, you ONLY went online to see public things, and aside from e-mail, any interaction was meant to be public (ie, signing a guestbook). But with online services acting as communications medium between people, we have to break away from that, and have sensible services where that communication is kept to its 'natural' audience.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Moondog on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 20:15:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 11:39 am

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phon it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app s collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. Th Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physi ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionalit current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't n much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do m fine. Play some music and I'm set.

    Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone with a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps on it.

    Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all around m area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I got Samsung A11 for free after the discount.


    Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me to run apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have had to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to give a
    Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in the same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get people complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, MS teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is probably a tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Boraxman on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 08:33:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

    Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messages posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 11:44:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:15 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 11:39 am

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

    There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android p it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the ap collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open sour and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

    Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to ph ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

    I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functiona current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don' much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will d fine. Play some music and I'm set.

    Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone w a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps it.

    Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all aroun area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I g Samsung A11 for free after the discount.


    Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me to apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have ha to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to giv
    Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in the same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get peopl complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, MS teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is probabl tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.


    I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management on
    the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for
    personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 18:20:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:33 am

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

    Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messages posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

    Nightfox

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to MRO on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 21:05:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    And miss out on all the insightful gems on FTN networks?


    - Andre

    ---
    Synchronet Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Andre on Tuesday, February 15, 2022 23:01:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Andre to MRO on Tue Feb 15 2022 09:05 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    And miss out on all the insightful gems on FTN networks?


    - Andre

    my twitlisting and ip blocking is so fortified that i only see 3-4 people on dovenet.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Moondog on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 18:32:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 11:44 am

    Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to
    Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in t same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get pe complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is prob tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.


    I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management on the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

    I don't care if it is a work phone, I'd want them to give me one. They want me to install this on my own personal phone.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to MRO on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 18:34:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:33 am

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

    Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Goog search.

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messa posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

    Nightfox

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Agreed. Guest access when you had to dial in made sense, but now, it opens yourself up for abuse.

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Boraxman on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 05:49:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Feb 16 2022 06:34 pm


    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Agreed. Guest access when you had to dial in made sense, but now, it opens yourself up for abuse.


    i would never allow guest access. sign up real quick and look around and dont call back. you'll be auto deleted in x amount of days.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Otto Reverse@VERT/BEERS20 to Boraxman on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 16:08:00
    What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), who share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know
    will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google
    responds!

    I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to
    suit the situation pushed upon then.

    No doubt. That is probably where the "I have nothing to hide" refrain comes from.
  • From Moondog@VERT/CAVEBBS to Boraxman on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 22:42:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Boraxman to Moondog on Wed Feb 16 2022 06:32 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 11:44 am

    Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but h to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have
    Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives i same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-ma teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is p tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.


    I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

    I don't care if it is a work phone, I'd want them to give me one. They want to install this on my own personal phone.

    My personal affairs are mine, not the company's. Some companies have a "use your own device" option for those who have better equipment that they are issued, but I don't care for company spying and the ability to wipe my phone with no notice.

    ---
    Synchronet The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Otto Reverse on Thursday, February 17, 2022 20:26:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Wed Feb 16 2022 04:08 pm

    What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), wh share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google responds!

    I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to suit the situation pushed upon then.

    No doubt. That is probably where the "I have nothing to hide" refrain comes from.

    Whenever people tell me they aren't fussed with monitoring and spying, I ask them for their phone, and if I can browse it. If they are saying they have nothing to hide, then lets prove it.



    If they are OK with some anonymous person looking through their data, then surely someone they know and trust would be OK too.

    Never had anyone comfortable with it yet. Good way to demonstrate they are really full of it.

    Reminds me of this story, where there was a debate, and someone who was arguing against fiat money or something was saying that money was actually worthless. He put a $50 note on the table arguing it was worth nothing. His debate opponent then went to take it from here, whereup he quickly snatched it back!

    ---
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Moondog on Wednesday, February 16, 2022 06:51:00
    Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

    I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of
    management on the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone,
    and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

    I had whitelisted my old phone for ActiveSync, and when I upgraded, needed
    to install Microsoft Entune. It's great if you have work apps that aren't on the play store, but for a company that doesn't reimburse for BYOD, it's a little heavy-handed; if you're going to install your infrastructure on my phone to give me the "privelige" of keeping abreast of workflow and potentially monitor my activity, you should at least pitch in for my cell phone plan.





    ... SURELY NOT EVERYONE WAS KUNG FU FIGHTING
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From Phigan@VERT/FINALZON to MRO on Saturday, February 26, 2022 21:25:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

    ---
    Synchronet Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com
  • From Phigan@VERT/FINALZON to Otto Reverse on Saturday, February 26, 2022 21:29:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Wed Feb 16 2022 04:08 pm

    Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

    ---
    Synchronet Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com
  • From Mewcenary@VERT/EXTRICAT to Phigan on Sunday, February 27, 2022 08:51:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do
    you know that have their messages web accessible?

    Synchronet itself does this.

    Mewcenary.

    ---
    Synchronet Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Phigan on Sunday, February 27, 2022 01:33:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

    Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #20:
    Doyle: Hey is this the kind of retard that drools and rubs shit in his hair? Norco, CA WX: 50.4F, 24.0% humidity, 0 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From the doctor@VERT/QBBSTEST to DIGITAL MAN on Sunday, February 27, 2022 15:05:00
    --- DIGITAL MAN wrote ---
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm


    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts
    the
    BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have
    their
    messages web accessible?

    Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).
    --
    I used to have a web interface. I should bring it back. I had it because I worked for EDS at the time and they had a proper firewall.

    I used to voice validate users. In 1985.


    ---
    * TARDIS BBS - Home of QUARKware * telnet bbs.cortex-media.info
  • From Gamgee@VERT/PALANT to Mewcenary on Sunday, February 27, 2022 09:18:00
    Mewcenary wrote to Phigan <=-

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the
    BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do
    you know that have their messages web accessible?

    Synchronet itself does this.

    Well, assuming the sysop wants it to.

    My BBS is not web-accessible.



    ... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Phigan on Sunday, February 27, 2022 11:03:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the B messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?


    Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Phigan on Sunday, February 27, 2022 11:29:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

    synchronet's web interface.
    a2k bbs has a nice web interface for msgs too.
    there's a few fidonet on the web websites.

    i didnt see a majorbbs that puts bbs msgs in a web forum

    i used to link my msg bases to vbulletin via nntp plugin and nightfox did also. i got the idea from hax0r from hax0r's palace.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Otto Reverse@VERT/BEERS20 to Phigan on Sunday, February 27, 2022 10:40:00
    Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

    Be glad this is a text-only medium! lol
  • From cr1mson@VERT/STEPPING to Arelor on Sunday, February 27, 2022 13:39:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Arelor to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 11:03 am
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts th messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?


    Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.

    Sincerely,
    Jon Justvig
    Stepping Stone BBS
    telnet://steppingstonebbs.com

    ---
    Synchronet Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Arelor on Sunday, February 27, 2022 15:57:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Arelor to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 11:03 am

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts
    the B messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that
    have their messages web accessible?

    Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to cr1mson on Sunday, February 27, 2022 16:00:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

    And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.

    I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BBS via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to Nightfox on Sunday, February 27, 2022 19:02:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 03:57 pm

    not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    Startup sbbs with "w-" to disable the webserver.

    From the Windows Sync control panel there's a "Web" menu. Uncheck auto start.


    - Andre

    ---
    Synchronet Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Otto Reverse on Sunday, February 27, 2022 21:07:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Otto Reverse to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:40 am

    Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

    Be glad this is a text-only medium! lol

    good thing you didn't hear of paul casey.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to cr1mson on Sunday, February 27, 2022 21:10:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

    Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

    that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts th messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?


    Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.


    you really think that's better than steve wynn's at2k design?

    https://i.imgur.com/G6X4CQK.png

    https://i.imgur.com/PkPSmM7.png

    https://i.imgur.com/hapUUWb.png


    i know you've seen it.

    i've always liked it. also it's nice and fast. i think it's the perfect design for a web interface to a bbs.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sunday, February 27, 2022 21:10:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 03:57 pm

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    no. you just turn off guest access to the msg base so the msg bases arent crawled by a search bot.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Nightfox on Sunday, February 27, 2022 21:11:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to cr1mson on Sun Feb 27 2022 04:00 pm

    I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BBS via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

    oh you paid? that's one thing i didnt do.

    i liked it. it was just cludged together.
    also, nobody used it. it looked great and it was cool but nobody used it.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Phigan on Monday, February 28, 2022 15:37:00
    On 02-26-22 21:25, Phigan wrote to MRO <=-

    Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts
    the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that
    have their messages web accessible?

    Synchronet is another.


    ... But that trick never works! -Rocky
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Monday, February 28, 2022 15:42:00
    On 02-27-22 15:57, Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality
    by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)


    ... Let us drink deep for death is inevitable.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Nightfox@VERT/DIGDIST to Vk3jed on Sunday, February 27, 2022 22:25:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web.
    Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web
    port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that
    functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's
    also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)

    You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
    I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of protection.

    Nightfox

    ---
    Synchronet Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com
  • From Digital Man@VERT to Nightfox on Monday, February 28, 2022 00:07:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

    You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet?

    On my BBS computers, yes.
    --
    digital man (rob)

    Sling Blade quote #17:
    Charles Bushman: A shovel just makes too goddamned much racket.
    Norco, CA WX: 62.3F, 12.0% humidity, 2 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs

    ---
    Synchronet Vertrauen Home of Synchronet [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net
  • From Mewcenary@VERT/EXTRICAT to Nightfox on Monday, February 28, 2022 07:28:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

    You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
    I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router
    for some level of protection.

    Numerous BBS systems are run directly with public IPs now via cloud solutions.

    Also, although rare, some broadband providers allow a _range_ of public IPs to be allocated to consumers, so it's possible to dedicate one of these to a BBS host.

    Synchronet doesn't come security hardened out of the box (I'd argue it should, maybe I should submit a pull request on this :-) ), but there is an article on Hardening on the Wiki.

    Mewcenary.

    ---
    Synchronet Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Nightfox on Monday, February 28, 2022 03:18:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web.
    Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web
    port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that
    functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's
    also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What por forwarding? ;)

    You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there' an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
    I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of protectio

    Nightfox


    Many rural areas have homes with a single computer in them. Village grandpas just skip the router and connect their computer directly to the ethernet link their ISPs give them. A router does not make much sense if you are only using a single computer.

    Besides, with IPV6 a computer may have an Internet routable address and be completely exposed while being behind a router anyway.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From cr1mson@VERT/STEPPING to Nightfox on Monday, February 28, 2022 03:52:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Nightfox to cr1mson on Sun Feb 27 2022 04:00 pm
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

    And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The bes that I know of.

    I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BB via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

    Nightfox

    I actually remember that from way-back. I too used your script with Synchonet and vBulletin. It was nice to import SBBS users into the forum and transfer messages between the two. That was quite nice back then. But ya, things have changed since then and echicken's approach fulfills certainly my needs as well as others. I still use the legacy telnet to write messages but it's nice to have a web-base forum with messages too that don't use telnet and particularly like the web side of things.

    Sincerely,
    Jon Justvig
    Stepping Stone BBS
    telnet://steppingstonebbs.com

    ---
    Synchronet Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Vk3jed on Monday, February 28, 2022 05:03:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

    On 02-27-22 15:57, Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

    Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

    I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)


    well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to cr1mson on Monday, February 28, 2022 06:43:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: cr1mson to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:52 am

    I actually remember that from way-back. I too used your script with Synchonet and vBulletin. It was nice to import SBBS users into the forum and transfer messages between the two. That was quite nice back then. But ya, things have changed since then and echicken's approach fulfills certainly my needs as well as others. I still use the legacy telnet to write messages but it's nice to have a web-base forum with messages too that don't use telnet and particularly like the web side of things.

    well another thing that was nice is the search feature of vbulletin.
    vbulletin is good software. the nntp plugin not so good.it worked most of the time. it's just old and meant for an older version of vbulletin.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Nightfox on Friday, March 04, 2022 18:55:00
    On 02-27-22 22:25, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..? I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I
    thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of
    protection.

    NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

    NAT is an ugly hack to help with IPv4 shortages.

    First defence is only have the services (daemons) you need running and listening only on the IP/port combinations you want. If further limiting of access is needed, then there's this wonderful thing called a firewall. ;) iptables on Linux does an excellent job, and even Windows Firewall doesn't do a bad job, if properly configured.


    ... You were sent here as a warning to others, weren't you?
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to MRO on Friday, March 04, 2022 18:57:00
    On 02-28-22 05:03, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up. ---

    That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.


    ... People are always available for work in the past tense.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Vk3jed on Friday, March 04, 2022 05:11:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to MRO on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:57 pm

    On 02-28-22 05:03, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up. ---

    That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.


    ... People are always available for work in the past tense.

    so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again. that's all i'm geting.
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to Vk3jed on Friday, March 04, 2022 05:36:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to MRO on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:57 pm

    well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they
    have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some
    type of hardware firewall up. ---

    That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.

    Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

    Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came a couple years after NAT.


    - Andre

    ---
    Synchronet Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org
  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to Vk3jed on Friday, March 04, 2022 05:41:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:55 pm

    thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a
    router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some
    level of protection.

    NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

    You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

    ;) iptables on Linux does an excellent job

    The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archaic and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging traffic.


    - Andre

    ---
    Synchronet Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andre on Friday, March 04, 2022 06:43:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Andre to Vk3jed on Fri Mar 04 2022 05:41 am

    The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archai and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging traffic.


    I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking and logging.

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Andre@VERT/RDOMENTR to Arelor on Friday, March 04, 2022 08:22:00
    I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking and logging.

    Yes, but that's not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it's doing is managing packet routing and state (I know I'm oversimplifying it, but let's be
    realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).


    - Andre

    ---
    Synchronet Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org
  • From Arelor@VERT/PALANT to Andre on Friday, March 04, 2022 12:49:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Andre to Arelor on Fri Mar 04 2022 08:22 am

    I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocki and logging.

    Yes, but that's not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it's doing is managing packet routing and state (I know I'm oversimplifying it, but let's be realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).


    - Andre


    If you want to split hairs, it is not Iptables doing that. It is Netfilter. Iptables is only loading rules into the kernel :-)

    --
    gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

    ---
    Synchronet Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to MRO on Sunday, March 06, 2022 20:43:00
    On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.

    Maybe try reading the message. :)


    ... An Elephant; A Mouse built to government specifications.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andre on Sunday, March 06, 2022 20:45:00
    On 03-04-22 05:36, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.

    Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

    Another assumption - who says the BBS was going to be hosted at home? Sure, many are (including mine), but I could have used (and did consider using) a
    PS.

    Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came
    a couple years after NAT.

    Sounds about right.


    ... Dachshund kennel ad: Get a long little doggie.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to Andre on Sunday, March 06, 2022 20:48:00
    On 03-04-22 05:41, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're
    misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

    Hmm, what about active FTP? DCC (on IRC)? Just to name a couple that have been affected.


    ... Observe the procedures of a general alert.
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From MRO@VERT/BBSESINF to Vk3jed on Sunday, March 06, 2022 08:18:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

    On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.

    Maybe try reading the message. :)


    you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat
    ---
    Synchronet ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::
  • From poindexter FORTRAN@VERT/REALITY to Vk3jed on Friday, March 04, 2022 06:56:00
    Vk3jed wrote to Nightfox <=-

    On 02-27-22 22:25, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow
    more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

    It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had a single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of my services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the rest of my lan over the second card.

    Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

    Admittedly, this was in kindler, gentler times.



    ... No ceremonies are necessary.
    --- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
    Synchronet .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.
  • From cr1mson@VERT/STEPPING to MRO on Wednesday, March 09, 2022 19:50:00
    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: MRO to Vk3jed on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:18 am

    Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

    On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over
    again.

    Maybe try reading the message. :)


    you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat

    All these nats. I think someone needs to start spraying for bugs.
    ---

    Sincerely,
    Jon Justvig
    Stepping Stone BBS
    telnet://steppingstonebbs.com
    http://steppingstonebbs.com
    ---
    Synchronet Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com
  • From Vk3jed@VERT/FREEWAY to poindexter FORTRAN on Friday, March 11, 2022 21:20:00
    On 03-04-22 06:56, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

    It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had
    a single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of
    my services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the
    rest of my lan over the second card.

    Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

    Yeah not a bad option, if you need only one IP. And there's other ways to harden Internet facing systems, if needed.


    ... Command not found. Damn, it was here a minute ago... hold on...
    --- MultiMail/Win v0.52
    Synchronet Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au
  • From Jazzy J@VERT/JAYSCAFE to Boraxman on Sunday, March 13, 2022 05:52:00
    Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-
    I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many
    people.

    I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For myself,
    the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I can be as independent as I can.

    Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure, the
    less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of both. Well, there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there anything that is
    ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog costs in medical bills
    after the fact.

    The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

    However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and
    never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever they have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security risk.

    People also don't value their information. They don't understand that the myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc. is
    largely their own making.

    Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be
    educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average person
    would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

    Jazzy J


    * AmyBW v2.16 *
    ... I use Windows... on my car, on my house, but not on my computer!

    ---
    Synchronet BayouBBS.Net, Ports 23, 6401 and 6402
  • From Boraxman@VERT/MSRDBBS to Jazzy J on Monday, March 14, 2022 13:12:00
    Jazzy J wrote to Boraxman <=-

    @MSGID: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
    @REPLY: <62084A5E.5205.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>
    Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-
    I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many people.

    I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For
    myself, the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I
    can be as independent as I can.

    Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure,
    the less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of
    both. Well, there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there anything that is ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog
    costs in medical bills after the fact.

    The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

    However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever they have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security
    risk.

    People also don't value their information. They don't understand that
    the myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc.
    is largely their own making.

    Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average
    person would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

    Jazzy J

    Who is going to educate the public though? There is no real incentive for the companies selling these products to do it, in fact, they would thrive of ignorance and lack of knowledge, as people would default to just purchasing something to fix a problem.

    I think people don't care because they don't want to have to fight, or be inconvenienced. So instead they try to rationalise away giving away their privacy and control.

    I'm not optimistic about where technology and our relationship is going, not at all.

    ... MultiMail, the new multi-platform, multi-format offline reader!
    --- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
    Synchronet MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org
  • From Phigan@VERT/FINALZON to Digital Man on Saturday, March 26, 2022 11:15:00
    Re: the nothing to hide a
    By: Digital Man to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:33 am

    Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).

    Aha, up there under "Forum". Not bad! I had not seen anyone set that up yet, only the telnet client in a web page thing. Going to check out themeability or whatever. Thanks :)

    ---
    Synchronet Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com